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DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

DMM7510 7½-Digit Graphical Sampling Multimeter
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dr.diesel
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DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by dr.diesel » December 2nd, 2016, 6:33 am

Message posted here as I see the issues most on the 7510, but also seem them on the 2450/60 as well.

I wanted to make sure Keithley was aware of several large issues the community has with these devices. There are many users of these devices over on the EEVBlog forum and we have started a thread there to detail them:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/k ... -problems/

If Keithley doesn't wish to join the EEVBLog forums we can move the discussion here, but very detailed info has already been logged over there.

Thanks for your attention.

Vince W
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Vince W » December 4th, 2016, 10:26 am

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I have forwarded the links on to our product teams to address these issues. We would post any responses on our forum, so the blog participants should watch here.
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dr.diesel
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by dr.diesel » December 8th, 2016, 6:40 am

Thank you Vince,

I will mirror some of the highlights from the EEVblog forum thread as it's being constantly updated:

1. Blue Screen of Death, Error codes found so far:
  • PC=0003D660 (7510)
    PC=0003D661 (7510)
    PC=000282DC (2450)
2. Not responsive to any button. This happens on all three instruments, no blue screen, reboot required to recover. This can easily be triggered by navigating the instruments web interface, particularly on graphing tabs.

3. Most directly dealing with performance, the autozero function does not effectively remove flicker noise on DCV 10V scale for continuous measurements on time scales of 1-50 sec. As the result on 10V DCV scale the noise performance of DMM7510 is significantly worse than Keysight 34465A.

For full details please reference the below:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/k ... msg1083291

4. When using trigger programming from front panel to arrange for timed measurements, the meter stops triggering after some random number of samples.

Currently reporting forum users are all on FW Version: 1.6.1a

We are happy to test or provide any further information.

adrian
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Country: Romania

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by adrian » December 12th, 2016, 9:57 am

As these issues appear to be encountered by a growing number of users, could Tektronix/Keithley have a quicker position in this matter?

In my company, we are very interested in this issue resolution, as we have been preparing for a swap of current DMM's with DMM7510 (more than 20 pcs) and this might be a deal-breaker.

All my regards.

Vince W
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Vince W » December 12th, 2016, 3:32 pm

Hello Adrian,

We are addressing these issues now and applying engineering release control and audit rigor for a new firmware release. We apologize for getting this latest release out with the issues you have found. Each release takes time and this is a difficult time of year to get all resources working at full speed because of the holidays.

Would it help you to down-rev your firmware to avoid these latest issues until we can get you a new release?
http://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm7510-software
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dr.diesel
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by dr.diesel » December 12th, 2016, 5:02 pm

Thanks Vince,

Any comment on the performance/autozero bug?

Vince W
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Vince W » December 14th, 2016, 9:39 am

Hi Dr.,

I am waiting on an analysis from our engineering team in regard to performance/autozero; not sure it's a bug unless I missed something. In the meantime, I'll suggest some ways to reduce noise (flicker was mentioned). Autozero is designed to reset drift from the 0.000 reference, but it comes at a time expense. To reduce noise levels, you can increase NPLC, turn on Line Sync -both under Menu->Settings (under Measure)- and use a moving average filter -see Menu->Calculations (under Measure)->Filter.

Vince
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Vince W
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Vince W » December 14th, 2016, 10:11 am

REGARDING BLUE SCREENS AND LOCKUP CONDITIONS:

We have confirmed blue screen and lockup conditions and are testing a hot fix for v1.6.1a firmware. This hot fix would be available for all touchscreen products. The hot fix will not be a general download because it is not a standard firmware release. We will be making it available to customers who have a critical need and are not able to use the next-rev-down firmware on their instrument. This hot fix will be incorporated into a future standard firmware release.

We encourage you to down-rev your firmware as a first attempt to correct the situation.
To down-rev your firmware from v1.6.1a, you can retrieve the most recent prior rev:
2450 http://www.tek.com/source-measure-units ... oftware-12
2460 http://www.tek.com/source-measure-units/2460-software-1
2461 http://www.tek.com/source-measure-units/2461-software
DMM7510 http://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm7510-software

If you have a critical need for the hot fix, please send me a private message with your email address for follow-up (click on Private messages [X] in the top right corner of the page, select Compose Message).
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JBrown54
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by JBrown54 » December 15th, 2016, 5:29 am

dr.diesel wrote: 1. Blue Screen of Death, Error codes found so far:
  • PC=0003D660 (7510)
    PC=0003D661 (7510)
    PC=000282DC (2450)
2. Not responsive to any button. This happens on all three instruments, no blue screen, reboot required to recover. This can easily be triggered by navigating the instruments web interface, particularly on graphing tabs.
dr.diesel

We're testing firmware at the factory now that aims to address the BSOD (1), but I'm curious about the "Not responsive..." (2) item via web interface. Are you exclusively using the web interface or do you go back and forth between the web interface and the physical front panel? (The latter of these two instances seems to be more susceptible than the web interface alone, but I have seen both now.)

Thanks

JBrown54

dr.diesel
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by dr.diesel » December 15th, 2016, 5:48 am

JBrown54 wrote: We're testing firmware at the factory now that aims to address the BSOD (1), but I'm curious about the "Not responsive..." (2) item via web interface. Are you exclusively using the web interface or do you go back and forth between the web interface and the physical front panel? (The latter of these two instances seems to be more susceptible than the web interface alone, but I have seen both now.)

Thanks

JBrown54
Hi JB,

I routinely go back and forth between the physical front panel and the web interface. The web interface *seems* to be the trigger on the Not responsive issue but it's kinda hard to tell. The vast majority of my 7510 uses are long term stable logging, so I don't always immediately notice it's just sitting there locked up.

@Vince W, you have PM!

JBrown54
Keithley
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by JBrown54 » December 16th, 2016, 12:35 pm

Adrian

Do you have a DMM7510 on hand already? Our engineers have a patch that appears to address the blue screen (per testing in-house and via a select group of external customers) that we would like to share with you if you're interested in giving a pre-release copy some exercise. PM me an email address that I use to send you a file transfer.

JB

adrian
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Country: Romania

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by adrian » December 19th, 2016, 11:52 am

Hi JBrown54,

Many thanks for your proposal. Unfortunately I'm on holiday until 4th of January. I will send you my email and when I'll be back I can try it out.

LATER EDIT: Unfortunately because my forum account is new, I'm unable to send PM's. Thanks.

My regards.

Klaas Klaastra
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Country: Netherlands

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Klaas Klaastra » April 26th, 2017, 10:36 pm

Hi,

I just received my new DMM7510 already with 1.6.3d. After a 4 hours working period I got several blue screens.

I can recall one particular scenario:

- Kickstarter was used over Lan
- Doing DC current measurements (low power DUT)
- The screens shows dialog "would you like local no/yes"
- Screen doesn't respond on touch
- Rotary knob is working
- Home is not working but menu is
- Going with rotary to communication setup menu
- Crash blue screen

Also, I never got that web server working. It doesn't show any display screenshots

This unit is now already for 2 years on the market and still unstable software, so I think that I will return it. An unstable measurement device is costing, instead of earning money. Rather frustrating.

Cheers

brian.d.smith
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by brian.d.smith » May 1st, 2017, 7:41 am

Klaas Klaastra wrote:Hi,

I just received my new DMM7510 already with 1.6.3d. After a 4 hours working period I got several blue screens.

I can recall one particular scenario:

- Kickstarter was used over Lan
- Doing DC current measurements (low power DUT)
- The screens shows dialog "would you like local no/yes"
- Screen doesn't respond on touch
- Rotary knob is working
- Home is not working but menu is
- Going with rotary to communication setup menu
- Crash blue screen

Also, I never got that web server working. It doesn't show any display screenshots

This unit is now already for 2 years on the market and still unstable software, so I think that I will return it. An unstable measurement device is costing, instead of earning money. Rather frustrating.

Cheers
Hello Klaas

Please edit your profile to include an email address to reach you as well as what company you work for etc. This is not an anonymous form. It is a forum for customers. We often send an email to customer to follow up on support issues.

For the embedded web page, you have to establish that there is a valid Ethernet connection. On the PC, you bring up a command prompt and ping the IP address of the DMM7510. Once you successfully can ping the DMM7510, you should have no problem with the embedded web page. If you cannot ping the DMM7510, you have to debug the problem you have with settings on the DMM7510 or setting on the PC.

When you run KickStart, the DMM7510 is in remote mode, If you try to to use the touch screen, it should be locked out since the DMM7510 is in remote mode. If you want to use the front panel, you have to take the DMM7510 out of remote mode and into local mode. That is why the DMM7510 is asking you if you want to be in local mode.

Your issues with the DMM7510 appear to mostly be operator induced and we can help you to use the DMM7510 for what you want to do.

dr.diesel
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Country: United States

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by dr.diesel » May 2nd, 2017, 6:10 am

brian.d.smith wrote:you should have no problem with the embedded web page.
The web interface issue is still present in 1.6.3d, as well as the autozero noise issue.

I've not had a single bluescreen in months though! WooHoo.

Klaas Klaastra
Posts: 12
Joined: April 26th, 2017, 9:59 pm
Country: Netherlands

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Klaas Klaastra » May 10th, 2017, 10:48 pm

Thanks Keithley,

The email address in the profile is totally valid so nothing anonymous here, you could/can reach me all the time. I updated company etc.

About your answer:
Yes, I get the point why it is asking for local if it's in remote mode. It isn't that I don't understand this meter. And yes, I also think that the blue screens are operator induced, I'm pressing keys to get access to my unit which is frozen :shock:. So what? Blue screens are normal at Keithley? Pressing buttons to gain access to your device should be rewarded with bluescreens?

Please don't patronize, it's frustrating enough.

I was also wondering why the PT1000 is missing from the builtin sensor list.

BTW
Your board tells us:
Please note that this information may be viewable to other members. Be careful when including any personal details. Any fields marked with a * must be completed.

Klaas Klaastra
Posts: 12
Joined: April 26th, 2017, 9:59 pm
Country: Netherlands

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Klaas Klaastra » May 11th, 2017, 4:26 am

And explain to me as a 5 year old, why is that unit frozen after visiting the internal website? And why isn't there any possibility to take back control of this device?

:evil: :evil:

BTW
It is just frozen, no dialog with the question if I want to go local. Nothing. The remote light is also off.

Edit
- Still in frozen condition after internal web visit.
- I connected kickstart and the remote led goes on as well. Both Lan and Remote are now on.
- Still no control, not by kickstart and also no UI on the device.
- Disconnect Lan, Lan led goes off, remote keeps on ????
- No UI at all

Watch video:
https://www.embitz.org/dmm7510.mp4

P.s.I will try to catch blue screens.

brian.d.smith
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by brian.d.smith » May 11th, 2017, 5:56 am

Hello Klaas

My apologies if my reply sounded patronizing. There was no intention to be patronizing.

My only goal is to get to the root of your problem. If there is a button press sequence that causes a blue screen with the latest firmware, we will find the problem and fix it.

The first requirement is that we be able to reproduce your problem. With that in mind, I will try your sequence of button presses while the DMM7510 is logged on to the internal web page.

best regards,

brian.d.smith
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Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by brian.d.smith » May 11th, 2017, 8:43 am

Hello Klaas

I am using Kickstart 1.9.5. The connection is GPIB from the PC using a Keithley KUSB-488B. This uses the Keithley I/O software layer.

I set up a test to measure DC current with NPLC 5 and 500 sample points. During the graphing of the test points I was able to press the front panel buttons and the DMM7510 responded appropriately. The knob turning engaged the functions it should have.

What version of Kickstart are you using? What is your hardware connection from the PC to the DMM7510?

Klaas Klaastra
Posts: 12
Joined: April 26th, 2017, 9:59 pm
Country: Netherlands

Re: DMM7510, SMU 2450 & 2460 problems

Post by Klaas Klaastra » May 11th, 2017, 11:02 am

Thanks Brian,

E.g. I did the following:

- Start manually a current measurement at a rather high rate (0.01 PLC)
- Go to your PC and, with the unit still working, log into internal website (The unit was showing normal measurements with the statistics in the bottom screen)
- The web server is showing a wait cursor and nothing happens
- Try pause the current action at the web server (nothing happens but just try)
- After some fiddling with the web server, close your browser and go to the DMM7510
- The unit is totally blocked and the measurements are also frozen
- The Lan led is on (as always because ethernet is still connected) but remote Led is off.
- Start Kickstart (1.9.5.167) and try to control the unit. Kickstart is able to find the unit but it can't control it.
- By now the remote Led is also on but the unit is still frozen.

If the unit is frozen, either by kickstart or web site, pressing some buttons randomly can kick in blue screen.

I hope that this will bring you further.

The unit is connected by LAN to the PC. The purpose of connecting is taking screenshot to share with customers.

Kind regards,

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