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TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

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profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 11th, 2021, 5:42 am

Hello!
Today, my friend sent me a faulty TDS784D oscilloscope. Originally, I was reluctant to accept it because I had a TDS5054B that also failed. Although I got the help of stick, I still can't find the faulty component.
Well, even if I can't fix it or I can get some experience in the repair process. So I run SPC. unfortunately, it cannot pass SPC. the following is the content of error log:
THU NOV 11 19:31:14 2021 WARNING: Varigain setting beyond limits, CH2: 1.450 > 1.090
THU NOV 11 19:31:53 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 3 @ 1012): 1.0443 => Balance dac #4 (ID #147)
THU NOV 11 19:31:53 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 2 @ 1012): 1.0190 => Balance dac #3 (ID #146)
THU NOV 11 19:31:53 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 1 @ 1012): 1.1541 => Balance dac #2 (ID #145)
THU NOV 11 19:31:54 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 0 @ 1012): 1.0313 => Balance dac #1 (ID #144)
THU NOV 11 19:35:01 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:35:31 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:35:51 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:36:22 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:36:42 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:37:12 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:37:33 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:38:03 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 19:38:18 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Triggers
THU NOV 11 19:38:52 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Repet Cal Failed
According to the information searched in the forum, it is likely that the attenuator has failed. Therefore, I carefully disassembled the machine, switched the attenuators of CH2 and CH4, and then ran SPC again. The error message is as follows:
THU NOV 11 19:56:03 2021 WARNING: Varigain setting beyond limits, CH1: 1.496 > 1.090
THU NOV 11 19:57:05 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 3 @ 1012): 1.1843 => Balance dac #4 (ID #147)
THU NOV 11 19:57:05 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 2 @ 1012): 1.0073 => Balance dac #3 (ID #146)
THU NOV 11 19:57:05 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 1 @ 1012): 1.0156 => Balance dac #2 (ID #145)
THU NOV 11 19:57:05 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 0 @ 1012): 1.0380 => Balance dac #1 (ID #144)
THU NOV 11 20:00:12 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:00:42 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:01:03 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:01:33 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:01:54 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:02:24 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:02:45 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:03:15 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:03:30 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Triggers
THU NOV 11 20:04:08 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Repet Cal Failed
It seems that the fault is transferred to ch1. Then I switch the attenuators of ch1 and CH3, and then run SPC again. The error message is as follows:
THU NOV 11 20:31:34 2021 WARNING: Varigain setting beyond limits, CH1: 1.496 > 1.090
THU NOV 11 20:32:28 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 3 @ 1012): 1.1738 => Balance dac #4 (ID #147)
THU NOV 11 20:32:28 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 1 @ 1012): 1.0162 => Balance dac #2 (ID #145)
THU NOV 11 20:32:28 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 0 @ 1012): 1.0916 => Balance dac #1 (ID #144)
THU NOV 11 20:32:31 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 2 @ 130c): -0.9998 => Balance dac #3 (ID #146)
THU NOV 11 20:35:35 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:36:05 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:36:26 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:36:56 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:37:17 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:37:47 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:38:08 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:38:38 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
THU NOV 11 20:38:53 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Triggers
THU NOV 11 20:39:37 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Repet Cal Failed
The fault still occurs in ch1, and it seems that the fault will transfer to other channels

But I still can't judge whether an attenuator has failed. Then I use the GPIB port to connect the computer and use the method provided by stick to make the relay in the attenuator run crazy all night. It sounds a little crazy, but unfortunately, the fault still exists. Even if it has been crazy all night, it doesn't work at all.

Finally, I measured the calibration resistance (RP911) on the circuit board. The resistance value of pins 1-2 is 8.78k, and that of pins 1-4 is 9.65k. The other pins are the same as those noted in the tds544a circuit icon.(Please check the value indicated in the attached -) It seems that the resistance value of pin 1-2 is 220 Ω lower. I wonder if this measurement result means that rp911 has been damaged?

I hope friends with similar maintenance experience can help me.
_093NE3_7NXS5YYZTQ8NFYX.png
_093NE3_7NXS5YYZTQ8NFYX.png (121.81 KiB) Viewed 493 times
8069~QB21LATWGJ0Q2@)CQE.png
[email protected])CQE.png (1.2 MiB) Viewed 493 times

Regards!
Profun

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 13th, 2021, 4:33 am

Today, I borrowed a TDS744A oscilloscope from a friend that can work normally, so I exchanged the attenuators of the two oscilloscopes. TDS744A can still pass SPC, indicating that the attenuator is good, but TDS784D still can not pass SPC, but the diagnostic program can pass without any error.
SAT NOV 13 16:25:44 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 3 @ 4002): 1.0356 => Fine Offset dac #4 (ID #139)
SAT NOV 13 16:25:44 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 2 @ 4002): 1.0356 => Fine Offset dac #3 (ID #138)
SAT NOV 13 16:25:44 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 1 @ 4002): 1.0356 => Fine Offset dac #2 (ID #137)
SAT NOV 13 16:25:45 2021 ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 0 @ 4002): 1.0356 => Fine Offset dac #1 (ID #136)
SAT NOV 13 16:26:50 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:27:10 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:27:23 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:27:42 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:27:55 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:28:16 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:28:28 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:28:49 2021 ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
SAT NOV 13 16:28:58 2021 ERROR: 2260 Calibration failed, Triggers
Tds784d appears to have a large background noise and a severe DC offset from the baseline.
B[9TK(5_TV3P$V@P3@)}DLR.png
B[9TK([email protected]@)}DLR.png (361.48 KiB) Viewed 473 times
P}MQ4$`9}26G((CDVQJK2`R.png
P}MQ4$`9}26G((CDVQJK2`R.png (1.01 MiB) Viewed 473 times
I re measured rp911 and found that pin 2-3 and the resistance value was 8.8k. I suspected that dg444 (u963) was damaged.
8AV4BDX)FANJ3QG99Q249I5.png
8AV4BDX)FANJ3QG99Q249I5.png (42.96 KiB) Viewed 473 times
In case of uncertainty, I don't want to disassemble and solder the components on the circuit board, because it is easy to damage.

I hope someone can help me

strick
Posts: 329
Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:23 am
Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 13th, 2021, 6:52 am

Profun,
I wrote you a reply, but the TEK security program killed it.

I'm on a trip, so I can't go measure my RP911s or the similar RP in the 5054. However, I seem to remember that the values for some of the resistances were the same and others were not. It may be due to difference in the DG444.

Now I have changed out a bunch of TL072s and DG444 in my time, so I would look there as opposed to messing with the RP. I had to use doner boards to get the circuits as these are pretty old chips.

When I get back, I'll take a look at several scopes and old boards and see what I see.

Strick

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 14th, 2021, 4:22 am

HI,Strick
Thank you for your reply!

Today, I started the TDS784d again and ran the diagnostic program, but it displayed "fail -- cal initialization", which is obviously a problem in the calibration circuit.
QQ20211114201846.png
QQ20211114201846.png (742.76 KiB) Viewed 459 times
I checked the circuit diagrams of TDS520B, TDS544A and TDS644A, and found that the circuit principle is basically the same and the components of the calibration circuit are the same. I want to compare the output voltage of the calibration circuit of healthy TDS744A and TDS784D, so I connected the computer with a multimeter and measured the output voltage of the check point TP958.
QQ20211114201927.png
QQ20211114201927.png (765.14 KiB) Viewed 459 times
TDS784DMU.png
TDS784DMU.png (683.98 KiB) Viewed 459 times
Last edited by profun on November 14th, 2021, 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 14th, 2021, 4:45 am

During this period, I ran the SPC of tds784d for 3 times, and the results are shown in the attached figure:
TDS784DNO1.png
TDS784DNO1.png (29.81 KiB) Viewed 458 times
TDS784DNO2.png
TDS784DNO2.png (28.2 KiB) Viewed 458 times
TDS784DNO3.png
TDS784DNO3.png (29.66 KiB) Viewed 458 times

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 14th, 2021, 4:58 am

It can be seen that the results of running SPC of TDS784D are different each time. However, the results of running SPC of healthy TDS744A are as follows:
TDS744ATP958.png
TDS744ATP958.png (28.59 KiB) Viewed 458 times
But I still can't know which IC is damaged.I guess TL072 is likely to be damaged
QQ20211114210449.png
QQ20211114210449.png (56.62 KiB) Viewed 455 times
Strick, please analyze it for me. When you are free, you can reply to me or email me( [email protected] -ltd.com)
If you need to guide me, I will follow you as much as I can!

have a nice trip!

Regards!
Profun

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 15th, 2021, 4:11 am

Today, I checked the (pin 3) input and output (pin 1) voltage of TL072 and found that the input voltage is too high. Obviously, this is abnormal. I must track the input signal and analyze which component is damaged
QQ20211115200249.png
QQ20211115200249.png (27.85 KiB) Viewed 450 times
@CZDXJL(PC$HTJ9RB@K)O4H.png
@CZDXJL([email protected])O4H.png (23.31 KiB) Viewed 450 times
QQ20211115195946.png
QQ20211115195946.png (49.92 KiB) Viewed 450 times

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 15th, 2021, 6:06 am

Now, I check the service manual and know that the calibration voltage signal is sent from pin 9 of U900 and transmitted to u950 (TL072) through analog switch U962 (DG444). Therefore, I run SPC and measure the output voltage of pin 9 of U900. For comparison, I also measured the healthy TDS744A in the same way. The results are shown in the attached figure:
QQ图片20211115211053.png
QQ图片20211115211053.png (31.2 KiB) Viewed 449 times
QQ图片20211115205039.png
QQ图片20211115205039.png (28.07 KiB) Viewed 449 times
It seems that the measurement results are roughly the same, so I have reason to believe that u962 (dg444) is likely to be damaged because its output voltage is too high.
I don't know if my analysis is correct. I hope someone can analyze it and give me suggestions.

thanks!

strick
Posts: 329
Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:23 am
Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 21st, 2021, 5:52 pm

Profun,
I'm back in town.

Hey, the Cal error occurs anytime your NVram becomes corrupted or you trigger the calibration commands via GPIB and select one of the calibration steps. The will also happen to TDS600 series scopes if SPC fails. I've not seen it happen to the TDS500 and TDS700 series.

I have never known what is going on in SPC other than the scope is calibrating the voltage paths (and frequency in TDS600 and TDS5000 scopes). If you bothered to make an image of the NVram before you got this, then restoring the NVram will generally clear that error. Otherwise, you have to calibrate the scope. Since I have all the gear and calibrate as a matter of course, the error doesn't bother me.

As I have mentioned on several of these kind of SPC failures, the relays are generally the cause of the problems. You may have to change them out. They are still available, but kind of a pain to solder in.

Strick

strick
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Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 21st, 2021, 6:18 pm

Profun,
Sorry, I replied without reading all your last post. Let me check the voltage levels of SPC on my 580C (same ACQ board as 754C) and see what the levels are. almost looks like you did one with a 1x probe and the other with a 10x probe...

Strick

profun
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Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 22nd, 2021, 3:09 am

HI,Strick
welcome back!
I replaced the RP911 on other oscilloscopes with the acquisition board of TDS784d, measured the resistance value of pin2-pin3 as 1.71k, and then powered on . Now there have been some positive changes. The diagnostic procedures have all passed without error. The output voltage curve of the measurement point tp958 is very close to the healthy TDS744A, It seems that it can be determined that the RP911 has been damaged,but SPC still fails. The error information is as follows:

ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, ( 2 @ cb02): Ch3 Varigain invalid or nonmonotonic
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, ( 1 @ cb02): Ch2 Varigain invalid or nonmonotonic
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, ( 0 @ cb02): Ch1 Varigain invalid or nonmonotonic
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain

I don't know what these error messages mean. I think there should be other components damaged except RP911,I can confirm that the four attenuators are good, because I installed them in a healthy TDS744A and can still pass SPC .
Now there's no clue.

strick
Posts: 329
Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:23 am
Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 22nd, 2021, 1:09 pm

Profun,
I did not understand your last. Did you replace the RP911 on your 784D board with one from another board?

I did run SPC on my 580C while observing TP952. Pretty much the same as you got with the 744A. Took it with my TDS5104 with a medium resolution, so you can see the same +/- 10 volt spikes with +/- 1 volt pulses, except where it increases slowly to about +/- 2.4 volts. I cut it off prior to finishing SPC (it passed).

The varigain and trigger on channel 3 still might be due to the attenuators as the D has much later (and better) attenuators. The 744A used H2462
G3 attenuators, while the D uses H2462J. there was also an "H" version in the middle. Unfortunately, unless you can get a hold of new or used "J" attenuators, all you can do is test the resistance and perhaps change the relays. I've had some fail that simply could not be fixed.

Also, I did observe pin 9 of U900, but only saw +/- 10 volt pulses, not the smaller ones you showed.

Strick
spc 580c.png
spc 580c.png (13.31 KiB) Viewed 383 times

profun
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Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 23rd, 2021, 5:54 am

Strick
I'm sorry for my poor English.
Yes, I switched the attenuator of TDS784D with TDS744A. Before you said, I didn't know that TDS784D must use H2462-J attenuator. Now I reinstall TDS784D with H2462-J, but unfortunately, even if RP911 is replaced, SPC still can't pass. Maybe one of the attenuators has failed, But I don't know how to check which attenuator has the problem. I don't have more H2462-J. It seems that it's really difficult to repair it.
I want to make a debug adapter card, but I don't know whether this card can provide more detailed error information when running SPC.

Profun

strick
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Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 23rd, 2021, 8:00 am

Profun,
I did not say that the older G3 attenuators would not work in a "D", but they would certainly not meet the 1GHZ adjustments during calibration. You may very well be able to get one or more of the G3s to pass SPC on the 784D.

The debug card would give you more insight into exactly what is failing to meet specs during SPC. If you can build one using the option 13 card (info is on this board), you probably should.

With the repaired RP111 and the "J" attenuators, what are the error messages?

Also, after SPC, take a look at the zero voltage traces at real low voltage settings (e.g. 1 mv per division) and see just how close the SPC is able to get the voltage calibration for each channel. You can then put an accurate voltage signal in and see if the rise in the trace matches pretty well with the input (e.g. with 5 mv scale, put it 20 mv and check for 4 units of offset on scope).
the point being, if you can't get SPC to fully pass, the scope may be quite usable still.

Strick

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 24th, 2021, 5:09 am

Strick
When TDS784d uses attenuator H462 J, the results after running SPC are as follows:
ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 3 @ 7012): 1.3389 => Balance dac #4 (ID #147)
ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 2 @ 7012): 1.3637 => Balance dac #3 (ID #146)
ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 1 @ 7012): 1.4020 => Balance dac #2 (ID #145)
ERROR: Internal adjustment range exceeded, ( 0 @ 7012): 1.3791 => Balance dac #1 (ID #144)
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch1 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch2 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch3 trigger gain
ERROR: Characterized values out of bounds, Ch4 trigger gain
I still don't understand what these attenuators can work normally in TDS744A, but not in TDS784D?

Profun

strick
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Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » November 24th, 2021, 10:05 am

Profun,
The main reason why I'm pointing you in this direction is because the attenuators are generally the cause of out of range voltage readings. Unlike the TDS500A series, there are only 3 chips in the Daculator section that transcribe the proper voltage levels to the A/D converters. The 500A series has a dozen or more. Thus, the likelihood of you fixing anything on the board goes way down.

From what you stated earlier, you are getting Varigain invalid errors with the 744A attenuators in the 784D, while you then get Balance dac and trigger errors on every single channel with the "D" attenuators.

And, you say the the "D" attenuators work fine on the 744A board.

If that is correct and the attenuators are fine, then one of the main circuits on the "D" ACQ board is bad or the connections to the attenuators (via the Cinch card) is the problem.

You never did tell us what the zero voltage offsets were at very low settings and how the gain showed up on the screen. That might point to something.

Strick

profun
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Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » November 26th, 2021, 4:28 am

Strick
I'm a little busy recently. I try my best to make a debug card. In addition, I tried to change the attenuator positions of four channels, and found that the SPC results would change.

If there is any new progress, I will let you know.

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » December 9th, 2021, 4:37 am

Strick,
Referring to the information on the forum, I made a conversion interface to connect the console port and option13, but when I started the oscilloscope, it couldn't start normally and stopped on the startup screen. No matter tds744a or tds784d, I checked the connection carefully and found that there was no problem. I don't know what the problem is.
20211209202427.png
20211209202427.png (580.5 KiB) Viewed 213 times
Pofun

strick
Posts: 329
Joined: March 22nd, 2016, 11:23 am
Country: United States

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by strick » December 9th, 2021, 1:50 pm

Profun,
did you use this circuit hookup? viewtopic.php?f=568&t=137307&p=280271&h ... CU#p280271 that's located on this board?

In addition, often the scope won't start unless you have an active serial communications link with a proper serial port. I did not find that usb to serial worked very well and use a direct (very old computer) direct 9-pin serial port.

I've found that putty as serial port terminal communications; 9600,8,1, no flow control works, but I usually use my WIN98 computer and Tera Term Pro with the same 9600, 8-bit, no-parity, 1 stop bit and no flow control. Works great.

Strick

profun
Posts: 39
Joined: November 6th, 2021, 4:56 am
Country: China

Re: TDS784D SPC NO PASS!

Post by profun » December 10th, 2021, 6:21 am

Strick,
Yes, I made a connection to option13 with reference to that post, but it seems that I have the same problem as someone on the Internet. Please check this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ ... msg3137624

As long as option13 is connected through debug console port, the oscilloscope cannot start normally, even if it is not connected to the computer. Later, referring to the solution on the Internet, I shorted pins 7 and 8 of DB9, but still didn't solve the problem. I don't know what the problem is.

Another question, I'm not sure whether the TDS7xx oscilloscope will transmit detailed information to the computer through debug port when running SPC. can you do a test?

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